Multilingual wiki (was Re: Deleting outdated/unused pages)

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Multilingual wiki (was Re: Deleting outdated/unused pages)

Minh Ha Duong
>On 9/2/08 Minh Ha Duong wrote:
>> Wikipedia has a separate wiki for each locale (including Volapük,
>> Simple English ...
>>
>> 6. One wiki for each language [is] probably the sensible way to go, but
>> involves big work for the  hosting company's engineers.
>> See issues and solutions for multilingual mediawiki at:
>> http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Multilingual_MediaWiki
>>
>> Also, the correspondence between translation should be maintained
>> with tags:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Interlanguage_links

> On Sep 3 2008, Sean Moss-Pultz wrote
>
> Roh or Gismo
>
> Could you comment on the technical feasibility ? I like that idea best
> as it seems to keep a growing site clean.

Hello,

  Is anyone working on this yet ? Can someone confirm at least that Roh and
Gismo are aware of this request ? It would be sweet if we could in extra have
an expected time of arrival. Thanks in advance.

Minh

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Re: Multilingual wiki (was Re: Deleting outdated/unused pages)

roh
Administrator
>> On 9/2/08 Minh Ha Duong wrote:
>>> Wikipedia has a separate wiki for each locale (including Volapük,
>>> Simple English ...

yep.. and they also have hundreds of people maintaining on each of these ;)

i think thats another scaling-factor than the om wiki.
we neither have db load problems nor traffic or apache load trouble.
we would need 25times as much resources to host that, means we would
have trouble when doing that without expanding our server capacities.

>>> 6. One wiki for each language [is] probably the sensible way to go, but
>>> involves big work for the  hosting company's engineers.

i think thats another scaling-factor than the om wiki.
we neither have db load problems nor traffic or apache load trouble.
it would require loads of initial manual work and also would make
updates much more complicated in detail.
in short 'too big hammer for this nail'

>>> See issues and solutions for multilingual mediawiki at:
>>> http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Multilingual_MediaWiki

sorry for asking this, but on short glimpse, this looks like 'far from
stable enough to 'just use it'.
at least the content and the heading "These are development
specifications, not documentation. This feature does not exist yet."
makes me believe that.

>>> Also, the correspondence between translation should be maintained
>>> with tags:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Interlanguage_links
>
>> On Sep 3 2008, Sean Moss-Pultz wrote
>>
>> Roh or Gismo
>>
>> Could you comment on the technical feasibility ? I like that idea best
>> as it seems to keep a growing site clean.
please see above.
its not 'cleaner', 5 would imho do the same level of 'clean' to the
listings.

this is a excerpt which i found most promising:

Minh Ha Duong wrote:
> 5. Each langage gets its main namespace.

this should be quite easy to do.. i'd rather put 25 namespaces into the
config once, than maintain and update 25 mediawiki instances, their
respective databases, webservers, and config.

[...]
> 5 or 6 are probably the sensible way to go, but involve big work for the
> hosting company's engineers.

> For 5. the http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Namespace_manager
> feature is not included in the Mediawiki.
thats 'special branch of mediawiki stuff... not any stable release but
somewhere in development.

 There is an extension
> http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Simple_namespaces
> but it is not installed : http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Version

sorry if i misunderstood you, but shouldnt 5 mean 'touch the config
once, have updates not more complicated as they are now'
if we really are sure we need to 'change the namespace config' more
often, we can install the Extension:Simple_namespaces to do that.

would that also be ok with you all?


Minh Ha Duong wrote:
>   Is anyone working on this yet ? Can someone confirm at least that Roh and
> Gismo are aware of this request ? It would be sweet if we could in extra have
> an expected time of arrival. Thanks in advance.

sorry for missing that mail, i hope i answered all your questions

time of arrival depends on if we need to upgrade our serverfarm first ;)

can tell you if we finally decided the way to go and i have found out
what i need to do in detail.


kind regards

--

Joachim Steiger
Openmoko Central Services

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Re: Multilingual wiki (was Re: Deleting outdated/unused pages)

Minh Ha Duong
Hi Joh,

  I think we are on the same page, so let me try to summarize shortly.

1.  One wiki for each language is 'too big hammer for this nail'.
(DNS, DBs, instances etc...). So the wiki farm option is out.

2. Mediawiki 1.12 does not have the multilingual features we need. They are
not in the last 1.13 release and we don't know when they are scheduled to
land.

3. The second best option is to have a namespace for each language.

3.1 This amounts to switching from suffixes to prefixes,
so instead of having like
  http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Main_Page/ru
we will have
  http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/RU:Main_Page

3.2 This is easy to remember from users point of view,

3.3 HTTP rewrite rules are also easy

3.4 It provides single-language search AND the option for users to set
multiple languages search in their preferences. Note that by default, the
search box looks in the Main (English) namespace even if the user is in a
Russian page, for example.

3.5 Search pages and category pages are not cluttered.

4. There are three ways to create these namespaces:
A. by editing the configuration files
B. using Extension:Namespace_manager
C. using Extension:Simple_Namespaces

5. option B. is currently not in the Mediawiki, but scheduled to ship with a
future version
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Namespace_manager

6. option C. adds a Special:Namespaces page to view and manipulate the
namespaces table.
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Simple_namespaces

7. Option C. is justified if we need to 'change the namespace config' more
often. Otherwise A. is simpler.

8. You are waiting from us:
8.1 List of desired namespaces
8.2 Is this list going to evolve ?
8.3 Final decision

9. My replies would be:
9.1 We want ns:4 "Openmoko" changed to "Openmoko Wiki"
ns:5 "Openmoko_talk" changed to "Openmoko_Wiki_talk"
then one "XX" and "XX_talk" for each XX in
ar bg cs de it ee es ... (see the Language template).
9.2 The list is probably not going to evolve, especially if we include the
next 20 most likely to be needed languages.
9.3 Not yet.

10. Why not yet ?
10.1 Can someone show us a successful implementations of this "one namespace
per language scheme" in another wikis please ?
10.2 Are we having the bot ready and tested to do a mass rename within a few
days ?
10.3 We need to change the  {{Languages}} template.
10.4 Can we ask users to setup their language namespaces to be searched as
part of the registration process ?

References:
http://www.itia.ntua.gr/~anthony/tmp/multilangwikis.html
http://www.usemod.com/cgi-bin/mb.pl?MultilingualWiki

Well, it was not so short after all.

--
Minh HA DUONG, Chargé de Recherche, CNRS
CIRED, Centre International de Recherches sur l'Environnement et le
Développement
http://minh.haduong.com

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Re: Multilingual wiki (was Re: Deleting outdated/unused pages)

Michael Shiloh-3
Minh Ha Duong wrote:
> Hi Joh,
>
>   I think we are on the same page, so let me try to summarize shortly.
>
...

> 9. My replies would be:
> 9.1 We want ns:4 "Openmoko" changed to "Openmoko Wiki"
> ns:5 "Openmoko_talk" changed to "Openmoko_Wiki_talk"
> then one "XX" and "XX_talk" for each XX in
> ar bg cs de it ee es ... (see the Language template).
> 9.2 The list is probably not going to evolve, especially if we include the
> next 20 most likely to be needed languages.
> 9.3 Not yet.
>
> 10. Why not yet ?
> 10.1 Can someone show us a successful implementations of this "one namespace
> per language scheme" in another wikis please ?
> 10.2 Are we having the bot ready and tested to do a mass rename within a few
> days ?
> 10.3 We need to change the  {{Languages}} template.
> 10.4 Can we ask users to setup their language namespaces to be searched as
> part of the registration process ?


Excellent conversation. Thanks, Minh, for getting us started, and thanks
Roh for answering. Namespace seems like a perfect solution for us, in
terms of what we need and how easy it would be to implement.

Roh, what else do you need from us or from OM? Or can you get started
based on Minh's answers?

Michael


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Re: Multilingual wiki (was Re: Deleting outdated/unused pages)

Ferenc Veres
Hi,

Michael Shiloh írta, 2008-09-12 20:52 keltezéssel:
>> ar bg cs de it ee es ... (see the Language template).

How will categories work with this? Will it hide Russian pages in e.g.
":Category:Hardware", or are categories also namespaced, like
RU:Category:Hardware? How do users assign to those categories?

Thanks,
Ferenc



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