[QtMoko] handset is (almost) unusable for voice calls with background noise

[Brolin Empey]

Hello World,

Almost 1 year has passed since I first posted to this list to ask “Is a
FreeRunner sufficient for me?” on 2009-06-17.  I have definitely had an
interesting experience with my FR and have learned a lot, but it has
also been a very frustrating experience.  I have been living alone in my
own apartment since 2010-01.  I have a phone line at home but it is used
for ADSL only, not for voice calls.  Consequently, my FR is my daily
phone, but using it as a handset is still very frustrating, even after
using it since 2009-08.  One of the largest problems I still have is
call volumes when there is background noise.  I usually use my FR as a
handset only, not with speakerphone nor a headset.  My FR is (almost)
unusable as a handset for voice calls with background noise when I am in
public places, such as a street or shopping mall.  I either have to find
a very quiet place, such as inside my car with the doors and windows
closed, or move my SIM card to my old and lame Nokia 6103b, which is
still my backup phone.  I am not a newbie:  I have over 8 months of
experience using my FR with multiple distros.  I have used QtMoko since
2009-09 or 2009-10.  I am currently still using QtMoko v19 with the
QtMoko v19 debug kernel because I have not been motivated to upgrade to
v22 and v24.  I have already experimented with changing values in
gsmhandset.state and have a config which is usually usable for handset
voice calls in quiet places, such as inside my car, home, and workplace.
  My FR is still sensitive to how I hold it, though, which is annoying
because sometimes I cannot hear people well or they cannot hear me
because I slightly moved my FR without noticing.

How many other people are in my situation?  Is there a practical
solution?  I do not think having to remember to enable a louder
gsmhandset.state before using voice calls with background noise, then
enabling the quieter gsmhandset.state when I am in a quiet place again
is a practical solution because it is not necessary with my Nokia 6103b.
  Why do I have so many problems with call volumes on my FR but not on
my Nokia 6103b?  Is it because the FR lacks Automatic Gain Control (AGC)?

Anyway, I finally ordered a Nokia N900 from NewEgg.ca on Sunday.  I
expect the N900 to be more usable as a handset than my FR.  Nokia
released the N900 without USB Host support to meet deadlines because
they could not have it certified for USB Host without fully working USB
Host at the time of certification, but on Sunday I learned it is still
possible for the N900 to use USB Host:  there is a community project to
make USB Host usage easy for end users.  To be practical, I probably do
not need USB Host on my N900 because it has a hardware keyboard and the
Wireless LAN probably works easily, unlike my poor and frustrating
experience trying to use Wireless LANs with QtMoko.  However, lack of
USB Host was one of the reasons I did not order an N900 months ago
because the FR has USB Host.  After I receive my N900, I will follow up
to let this list know if my N900 experience is better than my FR experience.

Finally, I do not want to start a thread of complaining about how crappy
the FR is:  my first post to this list already started one of those
threads! ;)  I appreciate all the effort and accomplishments of the
Openmoko community, but I also think the N900 may be a more practical
solution, at least for me, than continuing trying to make my FR as
usable as a handset as my Nokia 6103b, which is a very closed device.

Brolin

--
Sometimes I forget how to do small talk: <http://xkcd.com/222/>

“If you have to ask why, you’re not a member of the intended audience.”
— Bob Zimbinski, <http://webpages.mr.net/bobz/ttyquake/>

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[Timo Juhani Lindfors]

Brolin Empey <[hidden email]> writes:
> using it since 2009-08.  One of the largest problems I still have is
> call volumes when there is background noise.  I usually use my FR as a

I experience the same problem and it's one of the last problems so I'd
like to do something about it. My current workaround is to tune the
volume levels depending on the situation...

> How many other people are in my situation?  Is there a practical
> solution?  I do not think having to remember to enable a louder
> gsmhandset.state before using voice calls with background noise, then
> enabling the quieter gsmhandset.state when I am in a quiet place again
> is a practical solution because it is not necessary with my Nokia 6103b.

I agree.

>   Why do I have so many problems with call volumes on my FR but not on
> my Nokia 6103b?  Is it because the FR lacks Automatic Gain Control (AGC)?

Wolfson has automatic level control but you probably have not
configured it for use. We do not know what really is inside
Calypso. See page 31 of WM8753.pdf for Wolfson info. Iirc the argument
for not using Wolfson's ALC was that it could make echo cancellation
difficult for Calypso.


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[Joerg Reisenweber]

[Brolin Empey Di  15. Juni 2010]:
[...]
> using it since 2009-08.  One of the largest problems I still have is
> call volumes when there is background noise.  I usually use my FR as a
> handset only, not with speakerphone nor a headset.  My FR is (almost)
> unusable as a handset for voice calls with background noise when I am in
> public places, such as a street or shopping mall.  I either have to find
> a very quiet place, such as inside my car with the doors and windows
[... etc ...]

AIUI your problem is you have too low earpiece volume?
You need to ramp up volume to max as described in wiki.
Some FR have a problem of 2 capacitors in path to earpiece reducing max
possible earpiece level, while others have a correct 2 pcs 0R "wire" instead.
Actually for those I heard several complaints earpiece is too *loud* :-)

If you can't ramp up earpiece volume because you get complaints about far end
(aka peer) hearing echo of own voice, then you need to adjust mic level and
Acoustic Echo Cancellation settings for Calypso. Please again refer to wiki

>   My FR is still sensitive to how I hold it, though, which is annoying
> because sometimes I cannot hear people well or they cannot hear me
> because I slightly moved my FR without noticing.

That's completely weird, as volume shouldn't relate to how you hold your FR.
Only thing that can be affected by the way you hold the device, is GSM
interference aka buzz. You got the buzzfix for your FR?

> my Nokia 6103b?  Is it because the FR lacks Automatic Gain Control (AGC)?
No. AGC is for sure not the problem here. AEC settings might be, as I gather
you *have* gsmhandset versions that yield sufficient earpiece volume, but for
unspecified reasons you seem not satified with their performance in quiet
places. This might point to AEC problems (see above), but without clear
description of the nature of the problem, it's hard to tell anything specific.

> expect the N900 to be more usable as a handset than my FR.  Nokia
> released the N900 without USB Host support to meet deadlines because
> they could not have it certified for USB Host without fully working USB
> Host at the time of certification, but on Sunday I learned it is still
> possible for the N900 to use USB Host:  there is a community project to
> make USB Host usage easy for end users.  To be practical, I probably do

Hey :-D. Pleased you found my project :-) Anyway please notice it's pre-alpha
and not yet ready for primetime

cheers
jOERG

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[Tha_Man]

Brolin Empey wrote

Hello World, [...] I am currently still using QtMoko v19 with the QtMoko v19 debug kernel because I have not been motivated to upgrade to v22 and v24. I have already experimented with changing values in gsmhandset.state and have a config which is usually usable for handset voice calls in quiet places, such as inside my car, home, and workplace. [...]

I recognize the problems with the call volumes, I have been struggling with it a lot as well. I am surprised you 'have not been motivated to upgrade' your QtMoko, because the most recent V24 has a great improvement: Fixed gsm alsa state to use recommended "Mic 2" instead of "Right PGA" Also it uses neocontrol to easily adjust audio levels; this is my best sound experience to date, after having used Hackable:1, plain Debian/Zhone and Android on my Freerunner. I'd still give it a go if I were you, although I must admit I've been thinking of getting the N900 too (but I love the openness of the FR too much for that!). Cheers, Jeroen

[Radek Polak]

On Tuesday 15 June 2010 09:41:23 Brolin Empey wrote:

> How many other people are in my situation?  Is there a practical
> solution?  I do not think having to remember to enable a louder
> gsmhandset.state before using voice calls with background noise, then
> enabling the quieter gsmhandset.state when I am in a quiet place again

You can easily swap two alsa statefiles during call in QtMoko. There are two
radio buttons in menu during call "Handset" and "Speakerphone". The first one
refers to /usr/share/openmoko/scenarios/gsmhandset.state and the second one is
i think gsmspeakerout.state.

So adjust gsmspeakerout.state e.g. so that it's the louder version of
gsmhandset.state (very simple in Neocontrol) and you can switch during call
between those two.

Regards

Radek

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[Peter Nijs-2]

On Tuesday 15 June 2010 10:58:41 Joerg Reisenweber wrote:
> Some FR have a problem of 2 capacitors in path to earpiece reducing max
> possible earpiece level, while others have a correct 2 pcs 0R "wire"
>  instead.  Actually for those I heard several complaints earpiece is too
>  loud :-)

I also have the problem the earpiece is too quiet. I set "bypass" and "speaker
volume" to maximum in SHR-testing. Especially in China (china mobile) I
couldn't use my FR because the operator seems to lower the volume drastically.

Can I expect the cap problem in the A5? And can I exchange these caps with
'wire' (or a drop of tin myself?

Depeje

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[Joerg Reisenweber]

[Peter Nijs Di  15. Juni 2010]:
> On Tuesday 15 June 2010 10:58:41 Joerg Reisenweber wrote:
> > Some FR have a problem of 2 capacitors in path to earpiece reducing max
> > possible earpiece level, while others have a correct 2 pcs 0R "wire"
> >  instead.  Actually for those I heard several complaints earpiece is too
> >  loud :-)
>
> I also have the problem the earpiece is too quiet. I set "bypass" and
"speaker
> volume" to maximum in SHR-testing. Especially in China (china mobile) I
> couldn't use my FR because the operator seems to lower the volume
drastically.
>
> Can I expect the cap problem in the A5?

IIRC it was completely impossible to find out about the exact builds that had
the useless capacitors, as I couldn't find decent BOM which mentioned for
which SER# it applies

> And can I exchange these caps with
> 'wire' (or a drop of tin myself?

Yes, it's "easy" - you probably even can use silver varnish to short the
capacitors. Just check the schematics and component placement, there are only
2 (symmetrical) 0R mentioned in earpiece patch, in series from amp to the
transducer. You have to open a can to reach them IIRC. This also should be
mentioned on hardware ML, and probably as well in wiki.

/j

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[rixed]

-[ Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 12:41:23AM -0700, Brolin Empey ]----
> How many other people are in my situation?

The situation you describe is very similar to mine.
I'd prefer a glamo that's 10 times slower but a workable mic :)


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[Russell Hay]

...now this is what I'd like offered as a hardware fix. I've not needed the buzz-fix, but if I could have a usable volume... or at least some info on how to do it.. I'll be a happy bunny!

Russ

On 15 June 2010 21:48, <[hidden email]> wrote:

-[ Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 12:41:23AM -0700, Brolin Empey ]----

> How many other people are in my situation?

The situation you describe is very similar to mine.
I'd prefer a glamo that's 10 times slower but a workable mic :)

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[Brolin Empey]

Russell Hay wrote:
> ...now this is what I'd like offered as a hardware fix. I've not needed
> the buzz-fix, but if I could have a usable volume... or at least some
> info on how to do it.. I'll be a happy bunny!

My “solution” was to finally succumb and/or give up and buy a Nokia
N900. ;)  The N900 solution’s acquisition cost may be out of your
budget, though:  I paid about 613 CAD including taxes from NewEgg.ca.
An iPhone costs a similar amount to buy if it is not subsidised by
signing at least a 1-year term contract with a carrier, though.
However, the N900 is a far more open device, which makes it far more
useful for me.  Even if I was willing to sign a term contract, which I
am not because I do not need one with my Fido monthly plan and I do not
need a data plan, the N900 has not been released in Canada so I would
still have to pay full price for it.

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[Brolin Empey]

Brolin Empey wrote:

> Anyway, I finally ordered a Nokia N900 from NewEgg.ca on Sunday. I
> expect the N900 to be more usable as a handset than my FR. Nokia
> released the N900 without USB Host support to meet deadlines because
> they could not have it certified for USB Host without fully working USB
> Host at the time of certification, but on Sunday I learned it is still
> possible for the N900 to use USB Host: there is a community project to
> make USB Host usage easy for end users. To be practical, I probably do
> not need USB Host on my N900 because it has a hardware keyboard and the
> Wireless LAN probably works easily, unlike my poor and frustrating
> experience trying to use Wireless LANs with QtMoko. However, lack of USB
> Host was one of the reasons I did not order an N900 months ago because
> the FR has USB Host. After I receive my N900, I will follow up to let
> this list know if my N900 experience is better than my FR experience.

I have been using Maemo 5 on my N900 for a few weeks now.  So far, my
N900 experience is *far* better than my FR experience.

Unlike QtMoko, SMS works reliably on my N900.  Maemo 5 also has
conversation view for SMS, which is far more usable than QtMoko, which
displays only one message at a time.

Unlike my FR, my N900 is actually a usable handset, even with background
noise.  I can even talk on my N900 on a public street while being passed
by motor vehicles and pedestrians talking.  Two people have mentioned
how much clearer I sound on my N900 than with QtMoko.

As I expected, I can live without USB Host on my N900 because of the
hardware keyboard and working Wireless LAN.

My N900 works well with our access point at work, which runs DD-WRT on a
Linksys WRT54GL v1.1.

My N900’s Wireless LAN connection was unreliable with my access point at
home, which is a crappy Siemens Gigaset SE567 wireless ADSL gateway
provided by Telus, my ADSL provider.  I wanted to replace the Gigaset
SE567, which is owned by Telus, with a separate single-purpose ADSL
modem + gateway running DD-WRT anyway because the Gigaset SE567 does not
support WPA2 and traceroute does not work through it.  I was going to
buy another WRT54GL to install DD-WRT on because I knew this combination
worked well at work and I was already familiar with it, but I researched
current gateways and ended up buying an Asus RT-N16.  My N900 works well
with DD-WRT on my Asus RT-N16 at home.  I have not even configured USB
networking on my N900 because the instructions on the Maemo wiki looked
like too much hassle and I do not need a wired connection because I have
a reliable wireless LAN connection at both home and work.

I know the N900’s kernel is relatively old (2.6.28.x) and the N900 is
less open than the FR, but this does not matter to me because it is an
acceptable compromise in order to have a far better experience with a
more powerful and current device.

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[Timo Jyrinki]

2010/7/7 Brolin Empey <[hidden email]>:
> I know the N900’s kernel is relatively old (2.6.28.x) and the N900 is
> less open than the FR, but this does not matter to me because it is an
> acceptable compromise in order to have a far better experience with a
> more powerful and current device.

Sure, a finished product from world's biggest phone manufacturer no
doubt works better (even if also their first Linux phone). And I also
recommend N900 to anyone. FreeRunner is the no-compromise way for
freedom enthusiasts like me, or people liking to hack otherwise but
have some actual spare phone for basic phone usage (because the phone
part is one of the most difficult aspects to get working trustworthily
if using a heavily hackable and changing distribution like Debian).

I'm myself also quite happy with my FR (running Debian) overall, given
that I have a separate 3G modem for computer use, but with FR you know
you always need to do some hacking :) Well, maybe not much with QtMoko
but I've heard it specifically has had some SMS problems. The other
distributions need tweaking for sure, even SHR. Then if you have one
working setup and don't touch it, you can safely use it for months
trouble-free, but it's not always apparent what versions of the FSO
stack for example are good for daily use.

FreeRunner is a bit like an old (classic) car - you know it will need
great care, you know it's not the fastest four-wheel on the block, but
damn it's elegant when you've yourself made it go so smoothly and know
how beautiful it is inside :)

-Timo

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[Petr Vanek]

On Wed, 7 Jul 2010 22:45:05 +0300
Timo Jyrinki <[hidden email]> (TJ) wrote:

>FreeRunner is a bit like an old (classic) car - you know it will need
>great care, you know it's not the fastest four-wheel on the block, but
>damn it's elegant when you've yourself made it go so smoothly and know
>how beautiful it is inside :)

agree.

interestingly enough, the ex-FR -> N900 user did not mention or compare
speed of the two devices even once. so although speed is important
(eagerly awaiting latest glamo development to be fine tuned) this
tells us something too...

cheers

petr


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[rusolis]

2010/7/7 Brolin Empey <[hidden email]>:
> I know the N900’s kernel is relatively old (2.6.28.x) and the N900 is
> less open than the FR, but this does not matter to me because it is an
> acceptable compromise in order to have a far better experience with a
> more powerful and current device.

Thanks for your review, I'm glad you've had good experience.

From what you've written though, it seems you use your N900/ FR for:
- SMS
- voice calls
- Wireless LAN connection

I'm sure just about any phone is better than the FR in your case.

I'd like to hear how the N900 compares to the FR in hackability. Like
replacing pieces of software, like keyboard, window manager, etc. I
wasn't able to find much information about this. It seems there is
only one distribution that fully works on the N900, which is quite
worrying.

Michal

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[Sebastian Reichel]

On Wed, Jul 07, 2010 at 10:05:25PM +0200, Petr Vanek wrote:

> On Wed, 7 Jul 2010 22:45:05 +0300
> Timo Jyrinki <[hidden email]> (TJ) wrote:
>
> >FreeRunner is a bit like an old (classic) car - you know it will need
> >great care, you know it's not the fastest four-wheel on the block, but
> >damn it's elegant when you've yourself made it go so smoothly and know
> >how beautiful it is inside :)
>
> agree.
>
> interestingly enough, the ex-FR -> N900 user did not mention or compare
> speed of the two devices even once. so although speed is important
> (eagerly awaiting latest glamo development to be fine tuned) this
> tells us something too...
>
> cheers
>
> petr

Hi,

I have N900 and Freerunner, too. I have to say, that I'm mostly using
the N900, too. My reasons are:

 * Hardware keyboard
 * 3.5G modem
 * communication software is quite nice :)

As you can see I'm mostly using it for instant messaging and not
for SMS/Phone/... On the other hand I was able to find bugs in
most components of Maemo - the level of stability is not that
much higher than Freerunner + Debian.

I can also give a fair speed comparision, since I installed Debian
on both devices on µSD cards. In short: N900 hardware is twice as
fast than the Freerunner.

-- Sebastian

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[Sebastian Reichel]

On Wed, Jul 07, 2010 at 10:12:31PM +0200, Michal Brzozowski wrote:

> 2010/7/7 Brolin Empey <[hidden email]>:
> > I know the N900’s kernel is relatively old (2.6.28.x) and the N900 is
> > less open than the FR, but this does not matter to me because it is an
> > acceptable compromise in order to have a far better experience with a
> > more powerful and current device.
>
> Thanks for your review, I'm glad you've had good experience.
>
> >From what you've written though, it seems you use your N900/ FR for:
> - SMS
> - voice calls
> - Wireless LAN connection
>
> I'm sure just about any phone is better than the FR in your case.
>
> I'd like to hear how the N900 compares to the FR in hackability. Like
> replacing pieces of software, like keyboard, window manager, etc. I
> wasn't able to find much information about this. It seems there is
> only one distribution that fully works on the N900, which is quite
> worrying.

You may be interested in this:
https://elektranox.org/website/debian_on_n900.html

-- Sebastian

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[arne anka]

> I'd like to hear how the N900 compares to the FR in hackability. Like
> replacing pieces of software, like keyboard, window manager, etc. I
> wasn't able to find much information about this. It seems there is
> only one distribution that fully works on the N900, which is quite
> worrying.

hackability is fair to middling.
there are open packages, there are closed packages and there are 3d party  
packages.
documentation of hardware is incomplete and not sufficient to make a full  
working dist5ribution w/o closed parts from nokia.

for reasons unbeknownst to man, nokia has chosen to use some kind of  
debian, but not debian. making small changes, the made maemo incompatible  
to debian, thus cutting maemo users off from the plethora of already  
existing and working packages for the hw platform, limiting the available  
software to the packages nokia offers and those volunteers port from  
debian.
since not even the package names follow the same rules and, what's more,  
apparently similar packages are, in fact, quite different since nokia  
patched the sources, it is a sysiphean task to port packages to maemo. and  
i am afraid things won't change for the ebtter with meego which uses some  
kind of redhat/fedora, but not redhat/fedora.

package creation and dependency resolution is done with an attitude  
bordering on incompetence. for example: one one hand every language  
supported is separated into a single *-l10n-* package and for all those  
*l10n-* package there's a meta package. but instead of using recoomends  
and provides, the "meta" package depends on _all_ *-l10n-* packages and  
the top most package (the dependency graph has exactly one top node!)
depends on those "meta" packages. separating packages is thus completely  
pointless. together with the weird layout of storage space (256mb "rootfs"  
which gets filled up pretty fast), this idea of dependency handling is  
plain stupid and you are stuck with a bunch of packages you don't need but  
can't uninstall (the normal way) or remove forcibly b/c it is not clear  
what will happen the next time you run an update ... the included "app  
manager" is a bad joke and you'r better off using xterm and apt-get.

despite the claim of delivering not only a smartphone but a pocket size  
computer, you are left with crappy and crippled busybox instead of a fully  
functional gnui environment.

error management is poor, usually you get useless messages of the kind  
"something went wrong" and are left to your imagination to figure out what  
you should do about that.

keyboard is h/w, layout is not the best in twon, which is confusing since  
nokia provided far more intelligenbt keyboard layouts with other phones.
on screen keyboard is not much better, imo it has become even worse with  
pr1.2. i don't see an easy way to change the layout of the vkb, which is  
perfectly in style with the very limited ways of customization available  
(you can't even change the font sizes!).

window manager is a matchbox derivate, customization is little (see above)  
and even minor requirements like battery charge level are not available  
except a very rough icon.

the sole and only distribution available (so far) is maemo.
considering the long history of maemo and the version number (5), it is  
crap.

nokia's communication about future plans and development are hardly worth  
mentioning. there's still no reliable information whether meego will be  
officially supported.

there are a few attempts to make debian working on it, either by using  
plain debian and reimplementing closed parts (dead, iirc) or by using  
plain debian and repacking maemo specific packages, not sure how that will  
work with closed source packages ...


if all you are looking for is the feeling of using a somewhat open linux  
phone with a nice and polished gui, the n900 with maemo is perfect for you.
in terms of finish and reliabilty it easily outclasses the fr.

in terms of freedom (not only philiosphically but plain practical freedom  
of choice of packages or wm), the fr is far far better, and judging from  
nokia's past attitude it's not very likely it will become much better. the  
best hope is for either a debian using nokia's closed source packages for  
crucial functioanlity or a port of eg fso-

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[rusolis]

2010/7/7 Sebastian Reichel <[hidden email]>:
> You may be interested in this:
> https://elektranox.org/website/debian_on_n900.html

Cool!

What we need now is "just" FSO on the n900 :-)

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[Timo Jyrinki]

2010/7/7 Sebastian Reichel <[hidden email]>:
> https://elektranox.org/website/debian_on_n900.html

Thanks for your great work with Debian on N900. I do look forward to
2011 or 2012 to eventually do a switch from FreeRunner, and N900 is
one (and currently best) possibility. It wouldn't hurt, though, if
some truly (with some definition near FR's definition or better) open
phone would come out by then.

I know I _could_ make the switch the day the N900 ofono driver is
ported to FSO or GUIs for ofono would be made (and the modem driver
would be stable in the first place, which might take time), but my
main line of thought is that now that I have a working phone running
Debian, I'm not that eager to switch just for the sake of it or just
for speed, especially if it means sacrificing a few freedoms. Maybe if
something new in the spirit of Openmoko would arise... like the
leviathan's prospect that he mentioned on the gta02-core mailing list
last month. Let's hope for the best, and meanwhile freeing
not-completely-free-but-near phones is the next best thing to do.

-Timo

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[Pike-2-3]

Hi

 > It wouldn't hurt, though, if
> some truly (with some definition near FR's definition or better) open
> phone would come out by then.

has anyone looked at the geeksphone yet ?
http://forum.geeksphone.com/index.php/topic,891.0.html
I'm assuming all the hardware is 'open' ..

I know nothing about hardware. I'm willing
to pay 100euro extra for a developer who
delivers the brick with a working FSO-based
distribution on it. And documents how its done.
Who follows ? :-D

is it possible at all ?

0$c,
*-pike

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