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Hi all,
This is going to be a lengthy email, at least from my point of view, so I apologise in advance - however I feel I must share my feelings with you all about gta02-core, about what we have done so far, about our goals and objectives, and about what changed outside since we started this. And of course, pardon my english. We have not done much in last months - at least not something worth posting to a weekly blog. A large amount of work is done on the back stages - this is good, but we have promised more, and we ought to have had some devices out by now. Why did we lag so much ? Well, I see several reasons. Let me enumerate those: - iPhone came out. Although not a state-of-the-art hw platform, seems like it flipped a page on mobile devices. Stupid maybe, but consumers do have the last word on this. - iPhone again - iPhone caused a rush to build PDA-like mobiles and now we have (and we expect) offers that simply obfuscate our project, in all [but openess] areas - see upcoming HTC Legend. - We lost focus. - We agree our current hardware is obsolete, and does not give a real benefit over other options (iPhone excluded - iPhone is a black box not even worth mentioning) So, what are our goals and objectives ? Those were: create a fully open device so that others can improve on the design and fit it to its own purpose (mobile manufacturers included). Why ? This will give them freedom, this will give them faster TTM and cheaper mobiles. And, of course, we have a lot of fun designing and adapting the beast. Are this still our goals and objectives ? Don't get me wrong on this - I love gta02-core, I love the work we did, I want to keep on giving the best I have to give to the project. You guys are simply amazing, a great team, in all senses, I don't want to throw this project away- I threw too many. But I feel we need to either focus, or re-focus. Meaning, focusing on what we did so far, keep our objectives, or rethink parts and rather focus on that. Again, lengthy post. Sorry bout that. Best, Álvaro _______________________________________________ gta02-core mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/gta02-core |
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[cut - lots of pain ;)]
> But I feel we need to either focus, or re-focus. Meaning, focusing on > what we did so far, keep our objectives, or rethink parts and rather > focus on that. So... do you mean like making completely new hardware design using latest chips? -- Patryk "LeadMan" Benderz Linux Registered User #377521 () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments Email secured by Check Point _______________________________________________ gta02-core mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/gta02-core |
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In reply to this post by AlvieBoy
?lvaro Lopes wrote:
> Why did we lag so much ? > > Well, I see several reasons. Let me enumerate those: Hmm, I don't think the market perspective should have a major impact on gta02-core. It was never the goal of gta02-core to make competitive hardware, but rather to acquire and validate the skills and tools to do so. It would be foolish to try to mass-produce the gta02-core device. But if one wanted to, one could make a considerably more up to date unit with relatively minor modifications, and reusing the process used for making gta02-core. Note that this would still need a fair amount of money, for prototype runs, field tests, certification, and all this. In fact, I consider it a feature that gta02-core isn't meant to be a "real" product, because it would be extremely difficult to defend the effort spent on evaluating, fixing, and making tools if we had real investors breathing down our necks. (Of course, a little help from a philanthropic multimillionaire who doesn't mind if the ROI takes a bit longer - if it comes at all - would be nice to have :) For me, our main weakness are the components. For a number of reasons, Openmoko Inc. didn't have any control over the components for a very long time, and it wasn't even clear if this situation would improve. So by the time we had the schematics largely done, have found an SMT line, and have figured out the key parameters for making the PCBs, we couldn't really move forward with major items (i.e., the layout), without knowing the component situation. Another issue is that I underestimated the amount of cheerleading the project needs (or, to put it differently, that it hadn't required the critical mass where a cheerleader isn't necessary), and the interruptions I would get from real life interferences, such as moving and remodeling of my new apartment (still going on, but mercifully coming to an end soon). So whenever something else kept me away for a few weeks, work would slow down and eventually stop. These stoppages caused also smaller bits of work to be unfinished, such as the remaining open issues in ECNs, or reviews of the BOM. None of them are truly showstoppers, but each such problem makes it a bit harder to move forward. Regarding the market, I think Android is considerably more of a competitor than the iPhone. Many parties are interested in having an open platform, and while Apple make it easy to compete with them on openness, it's harder to convey the benefits of being more open than Android. However, we can avoid this issue by considering this kind of openness as a mere enabler (poof, Apple vanishes :-) and putting emphasis on the open hardware. This appeals to a different clientele, but they've been interested in the Openmoko project for a long time already, so it's not really something new. Also, opening the hardware design is a key element of gta02-core already for engineering reasons, so nothing changes there either. To be continued ... I'll be beset by construction workers in a bit, so I have to get ready to face the day. - Werner _______________________________________________ gta02-core mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/gta02-core |
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Werner Almesberger wrote:
> It would be foolish to try to mass-produce the gta02-core device. But > if one wanted to, one could make a considerably more up to date unit > with relatively minor modifications, and reusing the process used for > making gta02-core. Note that this would still need a fair amount of > money, for prototype runs, field tests, certification, and all this. Sure, I'm not saying we ought ot do it, but some third party might. My point is - are *we* to use these prototypes for anything ? I don't use my Gta02 due to its lack of features, like battery life - only use it as a GPS. > So by the time we had the schematics largely done, have found an SMT > line, and have figured out the key parameters for making the PCBs, we > couldn't really move forward with major items (i.e., the layout), > without knowing the component situation. So why not making this a bit more attractive to hackers by changing some parts of the design ? For example, changing CPU and display driver. And maybe add some room inside for attaching a custom small PCB (we should have a bit of space right now). I'd like to have a WPAN module inside the case, for example. Don't mention USB please, it's not practical. > These stoppages caused also smaller bits of work to be unfinished, > such as the remaining open issues in ECNs, or reviews of the BOM. > None of them are truly showstoppers, but each such problem makes it a > bit harder to move forward. True. But we can start layout with what we have, or cannot we ? > Regarding the market, I think Android is considerably more of a > competitor than the iPhone. Many parties are interested in having an > open platform, and while Apple make it easy to compete with them on > openness, it's harder to convey the benefits of being more open than > Android. If you are referring to software, yes. But hardware is closed. > However, we can avoid this issue by considering this kind of openness > as a mere enabler (poof, Apple vanishes :-) and putting emphasis on > the open hardware. This appeals to a different clientele, but they've > been interested in the Openmoko project for a long time already, so > it's not really something new. Also, opening the hardware design is a > key element of gta02-core already for engineering reasons, so nothing > changes there either. My worries are design becoming so obsolete that it does not fit any concrete purpose. Like designing an open hardware vacuum-tube television. It's fun, but won't fit any practical use. > To be continued ... I'll be beset by construction workers in a bit, > so I have to get ready to face the day. Heh :) That's why I decided to buy one, and not build my own :P Álvaro _______________________________________________ gta02-core mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/gta02-core |
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?lvaro Lopes wrote:
> Sure, I'm not saying we ought ot do it, but some third party might. > My point is - are *we* to use these prototypes for anything ? You should be able to use it like any GTA02, except with faster graphics. Plus, you could brag about having co-designed it :-) > For example, changing CPU and display driver. Which CPU ? What else besides the CPU chip would have to change ? Would this significantly increase the design risk ? Can it be sourced in quantities of 20 units and if yes, at what price ? Does it come with stacked memory or does it need external chips ? I think changing the CPU is too risky, even for a very similar chip. Even the difference between 2442A and 2442B would be dangerously large. If the CPU change requires a separate board spin, the whole "building a phone on a shoestring" plan falls apart quickly. > And maybe add some > room inside for attaching a custom small PCB This brings us to the point of being able to make case changes. We don't have this ability yet. People have talked about it a bit, but I haven't seen anything happen. I don't know why. > (we should have a bit of space right now). Hmm, we'll see. Our PCB will be simpler and it'll be the first layout of such complexity for probably all of us, so we may need a bit more generous component spacing. Also, the modem does actually get larger. > True. But we can start layout with what we have, or cannot we ? We're very close. We should at least first fix the components we can be sure will be missing, namely: cd svn.openmoko.org/trunk/gta02-core/bom make optimist make show-missing We can ignore ATR0635, PCF50633, and WM8753, since they're all or nothing anyway. But the rest still needs replacing (with parts that can be readily sourced, e.g., that Digi-Key stocks) and some of the footprints may change as a consequence. You can also to the same with "make pessimist". If you add a replacement we don't need in the end, the BOM system will know to ignore it because the original part is cheaper. > If you are referring to software, yes. But hardware is closed. Exactly my point :) > My worries are design becoming so obsolete that it does not fit any > concrete purpose. That depends a lot on what comes next. If a similar design were to be built based on gta02-core, many things would stay the same. For something radically different, there would be lots of changes, of course. > Like designing an open hardware vacuum-tube television. It's fun, but > won't fit any practical use. Don't underestimate the value of experience :) The tube may not be of much practical use, but you'll still learn a lot about making TVs :-) > Heh :) That's why I decided to buy one, and not build my own :P I bought as well, but there's a bit of stuff that needs fixing. And if IT projects are rife with budget and schedule overruns, then there's a whole new world waiting in remodeling projects :-( Anyway, workers are arriving, time to plan the mistakes to be made today. - Werner _______________________________________________ gta02-core mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/gta02-core |
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